My name is Jeremy Warren, although I wont revel who I have worked for in the SGM industry because you will more than likely be childish and keep thinking your abnormal thoughts on live bands, and may direct them to the artist. I have nothing to hide. I simply know more about this subject than you and I see where music is heading, SGM or any other. Your just a fan who don’t like to see change. I do apologize for calling you a fool.. bible said we shouldn’t do that. But you have judged where you should not. And clearly you are out numbered on your argument..
I will end my debate with you. You are someone with a narrow mind on music, and someone who is a amateur as far as someone who knows alot about SGM. It has been a waste of my time debating with you. You enjoy mediocre singing, fake smiles, and like hearing tracks and not live bands. I cant hold that against you, that just makes you ignorant, (someone who does not know better) and if you say “Again, with today’s technology and all the instruments running through the sound system, there is no difference between the sound of tracks and live musicians.” that proves your ignorants. Goodnight and may God Bless you. I hope one day you begin to see and hear what real music and musicians sound and LOOK like…....
Our audience has turned into 60+ people who are hesitant to spend money on concerts. They want love offerning shows or at the most $10 tickets with 3 major groups. Sure, they’ve learned to compromise. Keep the cost down, and they’ll enjoy the tracks just fine.
I see nothing new about this. This is exactly how it was 35 years ago too and there were live bands then.
I like live bands, but having one or not won’t deter me from seeing or enjoying a good group.
My name is Jeremy Warren, although I wont revel who I have worked for in the SGM industry because you will more than likely be childish and keep thinking your abnormal thoughts on live bands, and may direct them to the artist. I have nothing to hide. I see that you make no comment about Whitmanm…interesting. I simply know more about this subject than you and I see where music is heading, SGM or any other. Your just a fan who don’t like to see change. I do apologize for calling you a fool.. bible said we shouldn’t do that. But you have judged where you should not. And clearly you are out numbered on your argument..
Please refrain from name calling. The only one it hurts is yourself.
If you continue to resort to this behavior your posts will be removed. Let’s all discuss like adults, please.
Come on man,
I don’t care who thinks you are progressive, or too conservative. Peoples perception of you mean nothing to me. But Im glad to see you are for a change in the industry. Maybe narrow minded was too harsh. The only time I quoted you was copied and pasted from your words. But you are wrong about a few things One is that “in reality, that what instruments are, just empty vessels, the same vessels that put the same music on the track that is used.” Your forget friend that there are people in the same room worshiping with those instruments, live worship though those instruments. Live music in any gengre is a beautiful thing especially when the gospel of Christ is behind it. DANCING and playing, not just sitting in the dark not moving; shoved in the back like a broken jar. You know what if gospel music is about nothing but the singing let them sing by themselves. Oh wait, did that not sound like a good idea. Oh right because music flavors singing. Its music! Thats right not just accapella music. Ok you are right, SG music has always been about the blending of vocals. Many songs are sang just by themselves, and I love to hear that. But if you reduce live worship with musicians to just accompaniment you are gravely mistaken. Like I said live music enhances, flavors, and brightens the sound and energy of any band. If you think tracks have the same energy and flavor then I will stop arguing with you, because I no longer believe you have a valid point. But if we take it from an average fan perspective, which you seem to emphasize, what should we see. Being your run of the mill southern gospel fan look for differentiation in bands. Too often I go to concerts and hear the same group 5 times. I agree these differences should come in the main draw to the genre itself, the vocalists. But a live band with great energy and flavor is quite refreshing. Every vocalist should bring a different element to the table as well as musicians. From a business perspective, groups with higher energy and differences draw more people. No matter how traditional a lister is they will feed off the worship and energy of a live band. From a “work of the Lord” kinda perspective praising the lord can be done with more than just vocalist. Give crashing cymbals, dancing, singing, live music, live worship! At the heart of this industry its about worship. And that is enhanced by live worship. If you are on a mission to move the musician to the back, and keep the vocalist in front, so be it. Lets keep gospel singing to tracks! Lets limit ourselves to just that. Tracks, or just simply musicians in the back as accompaniment because that is what this about. Limiting it, thats my point. Are you just a vocalist worried about a live band taking away the show, or something else. I really don’t know who I’m talking to, but I know I disagree with you. And I close with this, “If I felt that these band members were worshiping God with their jumping antics, I would think differently, but that is not what’s coming across at all to me.” “Jumping antics,“really… I’ve seen more southern gospel groups with $6,000 rhinestone suits, shining in the lights of the stage, then southern gospel groups with jumping live bands. Before you start to criticize the work, the fruit, the worship of these musicians, you should look at some bigger problems in the industry. Jumping, dancing, playing music, singing are worshiping. There are bigger fish to fry my friend. Leave distractions to the rhinestones not the worship of a live band.
Jemery; Trust me when I say that Deon has a long lifetime of experience, far beyond yours and while I often get sideways with Deon he certainly knows what is going on in the S.G.M. Industry and frankly you don’t seem to even have a clue.
My name is Jim Weatherford, and a relative of Earl Weatherford, my group sounds very much like the Weatherford Quartet of the 60’ & 70’s. I’m also a professional studio singer with many years working in the Buena Vista and Disney’s Burbank studios. I have sung on almost every movie to come out of those studios in the last 20 years. I also do voice over work. I’m 60 years old and have the scars and t-shirts to prove it.
I’d love to add a “band” to our group, and we may someday, but for now we will continue the vintage sound of SGM, we like it that way and that’s it. If you sit through one of our concerts the one thing you would not be able to say is that we are boring or dated.
By the way, I earned a masters degree in vocal music & performance from UCLA. I was originally an opera singer, later a roadie for a well known R&R;band, and back up singer for several artists you’d now in country music. When I came back to SGM the one thing which struck me was the vocal quality of SGM singers, singer to singer across the board only opera singers have better vocal quality in actual performance.
My name is Jeremy Warren, although I wont revel who I have worked for in the SGM industry because you will more than likely be childish and keep thinking your abnormal thoughts on live bands, and may direct them to the artist. I have nothing to hide. I simply know more about this subject than you and I see where music is heading, SGM or any other. Your just a fan who don’t like to see change. I do apologize for calling you a fool.. bible said we shouldn’t do that. But you have judged where you should not. And clearly you are out numbered on your argument..
I will end my debate with you. You are someone with a narrow mind on music, and someone who is a amateur as far as someone who knows alot about SGM. It has been a waste of my time debating with you. You enjoy mediocre singing, fake smiles, and like hearing tracks and not live bands. I cant hold that against you, that just makes you ignorant, (someone who does not know better) and if you say “Again, with today’s technology and all the instruments running through the sound system, there is no difference between the sound of tracks and live musicians.” that proves your ignorants. Goodnight and may God Bless you. I hope one day you begin to see and hear what real music and musicians sound and LOOK like…....
Jeremy, your true Christian attitude is showing forth brightly. YOU have absolutely no reason to think that I would direct any of my thoughts with you towards a group that you played for. I have probably been involved in this business longer than you have been alive. I think I know a little about this genre too. All you can see about this genre is live music. You are putting all of your apples in one cart. there is much more to this music than live bands. Now, I have never said that I dislike bands, in fact, I have said that when used properly I like live music and would use it if I could afford it. You seem to miss that in my posts. However, your true colors come out as you berate the singers calling them mediocre with fake smiles.
Now that you have given your name, I still don’t have any idea who you are, but I am even more sure that you do not know anything about me. You call me amateur and ignorant, yet you know nothing about when music goes into a sound system. I have run sound for many years and know a little more than you give me credit for. I do know what REAL music and musicians look and sound like, for I have worked with them for many years. Your name is not one that is recognizable from the SGM industry so that let’s me know where you are coming from.
You know, you have gone into this tirade of how tracks are no good and only live music is worthy if being used, then you went to calling me derogatory names, and all I said was that I do not like the jumping up and down that I see happening in some bands today. I didn’t say that I don’t like bands, I just don’t put as much emphasis on them as you do. They are not as important to me as they are to you. Your attitude wasn’t just negative against me, but against any group who didn’t use live music. This is the attitude that often comes out when musicians start talking about artists who do not use live musicians. You do musicians no good service when you talk like you have. If all musicians had attitudes like yours, can you tell me why any group would want to have them around?
Deon has more years on me yes, does he seem to have more experience with live music NO!!! He may know whats going on in the industry i never said he didn’t, and thats the problem. for him to not like bands who worship and play their heart out on stage proves he does not have a clue with live music. SGM industry is dying. I see it all over the country. only a hand full of people still enjoy it. I predict, unless someone steps up and changes thing it will be a lost genre must like the flavor of the week pop stuff is.
Congratulation on singing on all the Movies for Disney. and for being kin to a guy who had a successful group. congrats on the degree too. but if there is one filled that requires no degree but talent it is the music biz. You can can have all the masters and Doctor degrees you want and that still don’t mean you know more, or allow you some kind of privilege. No one can say jumping around on stage and enjoying the music they play is wrong.. you, deon, or anyone else.
I haven’t heard many SG singers that could hang with a opera singer…. the people i meet in the SG industry.. well nothing should surprise me now after this debate with everyone involved..
Everyone is so afraid of someone stealing their spotlight. like it or not 95% of all SG groups are not on stage ministering. you cant tell me other wise. i have toured and seen groups up close, back stage, and on the bus…. just like what whitmanm said there are bigger fish to fry my friend. If the band is really into it and playing hard at least they are the ones being real on stage.
This is a worthless debate…. Deon you have no clue how much i know about live sound. you would be surprised friend….
I know what i believe and what sounds good and looks good on stage. I also play and worship the way I want to. if i want to jump around on stage thats fine. and yes i think groups with tracks are not as good or give as good a performance as groups with GOOD live bands. thats my opinion. You don’t know my name in SG because i don’t work in SG music all the time. i am only hired to do a few major tours. I am proud to not be apart of the SG world.. I work in industries that use live musicians, and they want energy and dynamics on stage.
Deon you started something that you cant finish or have a answer to. but the good thing ,is this that this is a form site. and we all have our ideas and opinions. I am ignorant to how a group can sing with tracks and enjoys it. but thats just me. as far as musicians, all the ones i know feel the same way i do.
I apologize for offending you. I am sure I have. But i take live music and the way people worship and perform very serious. I want people to understand what it means to play live, have a live band. We both disagree on many things. So i would like to offer my apologize and end these discussions. I feel this has and will continue to get out of hand.
Personal attacks aside, it seems to me this debate centers on one issue…can live musicians on stage make Southern Gospel music bettter (particularly in the concert setting)...and attract new and younger fans.I hold that it can, for many of the reasons that have been stated in this discussion. Today’s music fans expect a show. I agree there are many long time fans who grew up watching the “four guys around a microphone singing to a piano accompaniment” flavor of SG music, and I still enjoy that too.
But I think a group of good musicians can offer a lot to a song, to a singer, and to the overall presentation.
As an aside, I disagree with Deon on a lot of stuff (visit some of the political forums on the old board…lol) but he is a very committed and dedicated SG singer, and has a lot to offer in this discussion, as does everone else.
One more thing: its hard for me to read a long post with no paragraph breaks.
The envelopes are being pushed instrumentally as opposed to vocally. Live bands help with this pushing of the envelope. A live band helps push past the “one sound for all performance” feel. I love a live band. I tolerate tracks and understand their usage. I do think that a lack of live bands - on stage or off, jumping about (don’t some vocalists jump about?) or standing still - is detrimental to attracting a younger audience and thus helping to grow SGM.
Personal attacks aside, it seems to me this debate centers on one issue…can live musicians on stage make Southern Gospel music bettter (particularly in the concert setting)...and attract new and younger fans.I hold that it can, for many of the reasons that have been stated in this discussion. Today’s music fans expect a show. I agree there are many long time fans who grew up watching the “four guys around a microphone singing to a piano accompaniment” flavor of SG music, and I still enjoy that too.
But I think a group of good musicians can offer a lot to a song, to a singer, and to the overall presentation.
As an aside, I disagree with Deon on a lot of stuff (visit some of the political forums on the old board…lol) but he is a very committed and dedicated SG singer, and has a lot to offer in this discussion, as does everone else.
One more thing: its hard for me to read a long post with no paragraph breaks.
Mike
tater, thanks for your kind words. As far as I’m concerned, this debate was never about if a live band can add anything to a concert. My original post was about seeing some bands doing some things that I didn’t like and the tendency that seems to be happening amongst more live bands. I mentioned some bands that I admire, and this young whippersnapper, who plays for a country band, missed my point altogether. I was at a fair not long ago, and this group did a few conuntry songs to open the show, before hitting them with Gospel music. I love that concept, that’s progressive thinking. However, the band was doing the same jumping straight up and down in the country as they did in the Gospel music. The very same moves. This jumping up and down was not excited worshiping God, but merely getting into (grooving) with their music. I have seen the same moves by other bands and the are simply aping the moves of rock bands. I was born at night, but not last night. I know what I am seeing. I have to wonder how much worshiping and praising with his jumping that this young drummer is doing while playing country music at the bars. It’s amazing what you can find out about people with a little internet searching.
So, I’ll repeat, I’ve NEVER said that I do not like live bands. I only like them if they add to the performance. What I have seen lately is NOT adding to the performance, but rather distracting from the performance.
I guess my problem comes from the attitude of some musicians that say it is all live musicians or nothing. As this young man tried so eloquently to say, artists who use tracks are putting out fake music. It’s that attitude that automatically causes me to defend tracks, because I have seen many groups using tracks who do wonderful jobs putting out great exciting music. There is no need to do as this young man did by running down the whole genre and many fantastic artist, simply because they do not use live musicians as he sees fit.
This is off track, but bear with me a second. I hate mayonnaise, but I love tuna salad. When I fix tuna salad, I fix it with ranch dressing instead of mayo. Now, when I am around tuna salad made with mayo, I stay away from it. I don’t run people down who like tuna salad with mayo. I either bring my own with ranch dressing or I just stay away from it. Now, if I can make this correlation. If you don’t like SGM with tracks, then just stay away from it. Make your own SGM with live music, but do not try to tear down the ones who like it with tracks.
One last point. Let’s face reality here. 75% or more of fans in any genre, do not even know the lead singer’s name of their favorite groups. Only die hard fans know that kind of information. The vast majority of our fans love Gospel music. They love the message of the song, they love the close harmony of the vocals, they love the music behind the vocals, but let’s be honest here, the average fan doesn’t care if it’s live music. They don’t care if there are BGVs on the tracks, and they for sure don’t care if the band is on stage or on the track. The next time any hotshot gets on stage with any Gospel group, thinking that they are really something, they need to remember that 75% of those people looking at them don’t even know them by name. Those fans are just there to enjoy the music, and if it’s good music regardless of a live band or a personnel change, they will enjoy it.
BTW, I’m not offended by the insults because I am just as committed to seeing this genre grow as these guys think they are. I am just as convinced and sincere about my thoughts as they are theirs.
I remember as a kid enjoying the Original Hinsons, McGruders, Nelons, Gold City, etc. in concert due in LARGE part to the LIVE band that accompanied them. Since the rise of “tracks” in SG I rarely attend concerts anymore, because I feel I can get just as much out of a cd recording.
The few concerts I’ve been to in the past few years have all been let downs. There was not a good balance between track and vocals, or the microphones kept squeeking, etc. And these are very popular, nationally known groups—the “cream” of the “SG crop”.
Until more SG groups have GOOD bands that travel with them, I’ll choose to enjoy their music in the comfort of my home and car. AND since concert attendance seems to be a constant concern in the SG music field, I’m sure I’m not alone.
And Deon I understand the point of your comment was the distraction you find with some bands in SG…however I’d much rather be distracted by a musician whose “into” making good music than by an unbalanced track anyday!!!
Having a live band has for the most part always been a part of this industry. Until a few years ago, almost everyone had a live band. can you iamgine.. going to hear the Happy Goodman Family or The Hinsons and them use tracks? Talking about bands getting into the music. the Hinsons put more energy in one performance than most lazy groups do all weekend anymore. True, it is easier financially to not have one, and that is due to the stingyness of fans and promoters. In the biography on the Goodmans, Vestal states they were getting a flat of $3500 in the 1970’s. Now, if a group asks for a thousand dollars people accuse that they are just in it for money. The industry is changing, and the most part not for the better. This is not all the groups fault, as the fans cause it too. A lot of the “talent” everyone seems to be crazy over now, is nothing more than studio fixed vocals, let the same group have to walk out and sing with a piano, and they could not do it. Some can… and are great at it, but as for the bands go, live music adds to a performance, as long as it’s under control. My thought is… Anyone on earth can carry a tune with a track with good stacks…
Deon Unthink, I suggest you take your own advice. Stay away from the music/performances that offend you. Do not criticize per your mayo/ranch comments.
