OK Chris, we’ll leave bands out of it.  Once again, since you asked I’ll say again what I have said on other threads are problem areas.

In no particular order:

*  Lack of multimedia, lighting, and concert quality sound systems.
*  Lack of entertainment value in the pros.
*  Pro groups accepting the status quo and refusing to raise the bar.  Sure EHSS are fun live, but listen to their CDs.  Status quo.
*  Lack of tours.  We take 250 dates a year to survive and brag about it.
*  Lack of great lyrical songs because the best songwriters aren’t going to pitch great songs and get paid what our mechanicals bring in.
*  Lack of national TV exposure except for Gaither.
*  Radio is too influenced by promoters and labels to get outside the box.  Labels are going to play it conservative.  Somebody needs to play cutting edge groups and leave everything else alone and give it some time to build a base.
*  Labels don’t have A&R;people actively seeking new and fresh talent.  They wait in their offices for an established group to come to them or for a new comer with $20,000.  Broke kids with talent don’t have a chance in this industry.

Will you comment on these Chris?

ModGwen - 26 November 2007 04:47 PM

I am also curious about the country acts and southern gospel acts sharing the same stage.

Maybe this will help:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Jordanaires

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oak_Ridge_Boys

Also for Wikipedia:  “The Blackwood Brothers Quartet is heard singing on the radio towards the beginning of the new movie “Walk The Line” about Johnny Cash when Johnny (actor-Joaquin Phoenix) was in Memphis. The Blackwood family, Johnny Cash and the Cash family established a wonderful friendship that led to appearing together through the years on both recordings and live performances. The Blackwood Quartetâ„¢ and The Blackwood Singers were also among Elvis Presley’s favorite musical groups, which led to The Blackwood family and Elvis forming an enduring friendship that would also last a lifetime. The Blackwood family have a long list of wonderful enduring friendships and have performed with many well-known artists over the years.

On 4 July, 1955, the Blackwood/Statesmen team traveled to Texas for an engagement that would feature several secular artists on the same program. Among them was Elvis Presley. Elvis was planning to sing his rock hits, but refrained out of respect of his gospel idols, the Statesmen and Blackwoods. The Statesmen exerted a powerful influence on young Elvis Presley, who idolized and imitated Jake Hess’ vocal stylings and Big Chief’s leg shaking. In an interview with songwriter Bill Gaither, Hess remembered seeing young Elvis coming to Statesmen shows in Tupelo when Presley was only nine or ten. Hess said that the serious young Elvis would ask him, “How do you make a record?” or “How many suits you got?” On the Gaither Homecoming video “Oh My Glory”, Jake Hess tells about Elvis coming to Statesmen concerts and being invited up onstage to sing lead in place of Jake on a song or two.”

There are others such as the Carter Family and LeFevers.  More recently, groups like Gold City, Crabb Family, Isaacs, and others have shared the Grand Ole Opry stage with some of countrys biggest stars.

Does this answer your questions at least in part.  I’m shocked if no one has heard the storys of the big singings in the 40s and 50s that were a mixture of country and gospel artists.

FamilyMan;  I sure can’t say you are wrong, however I feel you forgot, or didn’t include a major problem in SGM… A total lack of MENTORING from the big boys on down.  Other local groups see you as a threat, and the national groups could care less, after all most of them are close to the RED everyday.

Bass-ically yours - 26 November 2007 10:03 PM

FamilyMan;  I sure can’t say you are wrong, however I feel you forgot, or didn’t include a major problem in SGM… A total lack of MENTORING from the big boys on down.  Other local groups see you as a threat, and the national groups could care less, after all most of them are close to the RED everyday.

I see you’re point but don’t necessarily agree Bass.  Locals/regionals should not be competing for the same slice of the booking pie as the pros.  If the pros are playing on the same field, they are in trouble.  Their living depends on getting lots of prime dates. 

There’s a thousand quarterbacks who would have like to take Brett Farves job.  They couldn’t because he wouldn’t lower his standard.  He is just better so he can command that premium paycheck.

Our pros aren’t commanding premium paychecks.  Why?  Until they start doing something exceptional, I can’t see how they can successfully mentor anyone.

Chris D. Unthank - 26 November 2007 04:45 PM

Also - please tell me what SG artists were sharing the stage with major country acts?  I really want to know who these acts are, because for my own knowledge I want to know.

I hope my post earlier successfully answered this question.  I will be happy to name more if you would like.  I’m sure you are too young to remember the early groups I named.  Maybe you’ve seen some of the Opry shows.  Surely Deon has since country fans are our potential fan base.

Perhaps you remember the political rally scene from the movie Oh, Brother.  My mom and grandparents said that was typical.  It was OK for country artists to sing gospel songs but gospel artists couldn’t sing country.  It was viewed as hypocritical.

UGH.  Guys - why does this have to turn into a thread about bands.  The problem with the industry is not solely because of a lack of musicians.  It’s a multitude of things - and until you all realize that - you’re never going to get anywhere.

Well if you are going to try to attract country fans most who value excellence in musicianship as well as singing it IS going to be a major problem.
You are really not going to get someone who has seen a Garth Brooks concert to watch 3 or 4 people standing around with microphones on a stage.

FamilyMan - 26 November 2007 09:21 PM

... Somebody needs to play cutting edge groups and leave everything else alone and give it some time to build a base.

Please define “cutting edge”  Pleasee don’t use a group name or names as the definition.

Brother - 27 November 2007 07:46 AM

FamilyMan - 26 November 2007 09:21 PM

... Somebody needs to play cutting edge groups and leave everything else alone and give it some time to build a base.

Please define “cutting edge”  Pleasee don’t use a group name or names as the definition.

I will try to define it, but I’d like to clarify first.  I don’t believe all stations should follow the format I’ll try to describe below, but someone should try it and see if it is marketable to listeners.

My idea of a “cutting edge” station would be to play artists who are more on the progressive side stylistically and vocally.  This would eliminate air play by traditional quartets, trios, and mixed groups.  Convention style singing, screaming endings, etc would be saved for the more traditional stations.

It’s just a thought.  We’ve got to try something different and we have several stations who have already tried the quartet only or conventional style music without much affect.

Wow family man you might be tossing out the baby with the bath water. There is nothing wrong with traditional QTs, trios, etc and they have a place in a progressive SG format. From what you are describing you wuld leave groups like the Dove Brothers, EHSS, Gold CFity and the Perrys behind - big mistake.

I think that I have mentioned before in this thread that SG radio will improve by working on what we don’t play as opposed to what we play. Don’t play music - progressive or traditional - that lacks quality. If you don’t know what quality is hire someone that does. Look at the SN chart’s top 30 (no laughter please). Look at this site’s chart. If you don’t see it there don’t play it. Extreme? Probably but a good start for those that don’t know a good song from one that is a dail turner.

I have been programming “progessive” SGM for several years. I also play traditional groups and even some oldies. The common them is that they have to have “the sound”. No twang. No hokey music. Nothing that rings of stereotypical SGM. Quality.

New thought…..
Music. The music determines moreso than anything if a song is progressive. With this said, one of the reasons that people are not listening is that the music is to predictable. It doesn’t matter if the music is by track or group, unless it is fresh milk its cheese.

I think that some of the music that EHSS uses, more than anything else they do, reflects a freshness that many traditional groups lack. The Talleys are fresh. The Crabbs made a name for themselves with fresh music. TK and McRea, Crossway, GVB are others that have a fresh sound.

(You can poke me for whats coming…) Gold City, The Kingdom Heirs, and the Perrys - great groups with great songs and I love’m but - they need to take some chances on their next albums as the current ones lack freshness (just MHO) There’s nothing wrong with what they are doing if you want to stay where you are but growth requires change and taking chances.

(Please don’t get me wrong. I am not slamming these groups. They are top tier at what they do and I appreciate their music. What I am saying is what they are doing is not helping to growing SGM. It’s not hurting SGM, but its not helping as much as it could considering the potential these prime groups have.)

Let me clarify the above post because I don’t want to be taken as down playing the importance of these groups. Groups like Gold City, The Perrys, Kingdom Heirs, etc are some of the core groups of the genre. They maintain our current listener ship and do it well. They are at the center of the genre and growth doesn’t happen at the center. They are the anchor that also keeps us from going to far off course. They are the bedrock that can be counted on for consistency. They are the “bread” in the SGM sandwich. They aren’t the most flavorful part but you need them as they help hold it all together….Big ships don’t turn easily.

Tim-He’s Alive - 27 November 2007 09:53 AM

Wow family man you might be tossing out the baby with the bath water. There is nothing wrong with traditional QTs, trios, etc and they have a place in a progressive SG format. From what you are describing you wuld leave groups like the Dove Brothers, EHSS, Gold CFity and the Perrys behind - big mistake.

I think that I have mentioned before in this thread that SG radio will improve by working on what we don’t play as opposed to what we play. Don’t play music - progressive or traditional - that lacks quality. If you don’t know what quality is hire someone that does. Look at the SN chart’s top 30 (no laughter please). Look at this site’s chart. If you don’t see it there don’t play it. Extreme? Probably but a good start for those that don’t know a good song from one that is a dail turner.

I have been programming “progessive” SGM for several years. I also play traditional groups and even some oldies. The common them is that they have to have “the sound”. No twang. No hokey music. Nothing that rings of stereotypical SGM. Quality.

I agree 100% with the part that I put in bold. That is the key to drawing a bigger audience. I would ad that any music is dangerous for radio if it contributes to the idea that SG is nothing but “crossing chilly Jordan” and “getting saved at an old-fashioned altar”. (I don’t mean to mock or speak derisively about any form of SG). Not that it’s bad to sing about heaven and salvation, but the lyrical content must be original and creative, and diverse.

FamilyMan - 27 November 2007 09:01 AM

Brother - 27 November 2007 07:46 AM

FamilyMan - 26 November 2007 09:21 PM

... Somebody needs to play cutting edge groups and leave everything else alone and give it some time to build a base.

Please define “cutting edge”  Pleasee don’t use a group name or names as the definition.

I will try to define it, but I’d like to clarify first.  I don’t believe all stations should follow the format I’ll try to describe below, but someone should try it and see if it is marketable to listeners.

My idea of a “cutting edge” station would be to play artists who are more on the progressive side stylistically and vocally.  This would eliminate air play by traditional quartets, trios, and mixed groups.  Convention style singing, screaming endings, etc would be saved for the more traditional stations.

It’s just a thought.  We’ve got to try something different and we have several stations who have already tried the quartet only or conventional style music without much affect.

I disagree. Equal time should be given to both (as closely as possible). Stations must play progressive music while maintaining the sound of SG. If we eliminate traditional quartets, trios, and mixed groups, would it even be SG anymore? To me that music is the substance of SG. Southern Gospel needs to be innovative and progressive, but it must also be true to itself.

FamilyMan - 26 November 2007 09:21 PM

OK Chris, we’ll leave bands out of it.  Once again, since you asked I’ll say again what I have said on other threads are problem areas.

In no particular order:

*  Lack of multimedia, lighting, and concert quality sound systems.
*  Lack of entertainment value in the pros.
*  Pro groups accepting the status quo and refusing to raise the bar.  Sure EHSS are fun live, but listen to their CDs.  Status quo.
*  Lack of tours.  We take 250 dates a year to survive and brag about it.
*  Lack of great lyrical songs because the best songwriters aren’t going to pitch great songs and get paid what our mechanicals bring in.
*  Lack of national TV exposure except for Gaither.
*  Radio is too influenced by promoters and labels to get outside the box.  Labels are going to play it conservative.  Somebody needs to play cutting edge groups and leave everything else alone and give it some time to build a base.
*  Labels don’t have A&R;people actively seeking new and fresh talent.  They wait in their offices for an established group to come to them or for a new comer with $20,000.  Broke kids with talent don’t have a chance in this industry.

Will you comment on these Chris?

I agree with you in general, though I’m not up to spead on some of the details.  The problem is, how do you compel improvement in those areas in a free-market economy?

subace914 - 27 November 2007 11:31 AM

I agree 100% with the part that I put in bold. That is the key to drawing a bigger audience. I would ad that any music is dangerous for radio if it contributes to the idea that SG is nothing but “crossing chilly Jordan” and “getting saved at an old-fashioned altar”. (I don’t mean to mock or speak derisively about any form of SG). Not that it’s bad to sing about heaven and salvation, but the lyrical content must be original and creative, and diverse.

Don’t forget any song that has “Momma” in the title….   (nothing against momma but…...)

subace914 - 27 November 2007 11:37 AM

I agree with you in general, though I’m not up to spead on some of the details.  The problem is, how do you compel improvement in those areas in a free-market economy?

I believe the major offensive has to come from the pros and labels.