revrunnels - 02 May 2008 01:12 PM

Sounds to me like Tony is NOT going to take any answer that does NOT agree with him.

On the contrary, I don’t claim to have the “truth” on this matter.  I’m simply pointing out that—so far—no one has provided any contextual Scripture that supports the doctrine of a literal, eternal hell where God tortures billions of people for dying without Christ. 

That’s a pretty big doctrine and a very popular one.  So, my point has simply been that—if such a large and obvious doctrine is based in Scripture—then it shouldn’t be hard to come up with a single verse or passage that actually spells all that out in its context.

So far, it seems to be a harder task than we all imagined!

I had rather live my life believing there is a literal hell. I am not going to quibble over over Greek, Hebrew, Latin, Arabic definitions to get around somethiing in the Word.

Huh?  The “Word” as you call it wasn’t written in English.  Do you not think that it’s important to know what the original meanings of words are?

Let me ask it this way:  if you say you LOVE hot dogs and you LOVE your wife and you LOVE the Cathedral Quartet.......does that word “love” mean the same thing in all those sentences?

No it doesn’t.

So, when a word is translated as “hell” a few dozen times...but the SAME word is translated “grave” a few other dozen times.....when one word is referring to a garbage dump (not to a supernatural location).....

....yeah, I think that an astute person IS going to have to “quibble” over some Hebrew, Greek, Latin and Arabic!

And yes, I heartily agree that there are some people who really can’t be bothered to invest the time and energy necessary for a clear understanding.  And that’s 100% okay.  They just shouldn’t be expected to be taken as seriously as someone who holds their beliefs because they actually DID invest the time and energy to feel confident in what they were talking about.

Tony

Jesus said “shake the dust off your feet”. On this subject I am!

Rev, it’s your prerogative.  May I simply suggest that you arrive at the ability to base your belief in hell on Scripture and not on the habitual teaching of Christendom?

Church teaches a lot of things that aren’t based in the Bible.  Make sure your beliefs are based on something stronger than someone else’s opinion.

Tony

I’m still waiting on Tony to tell me where lost souls go if they don’t go to hell.

TonyRush - 02 May 2008 07:55 AM

But you’ll obviously believe and teach what you wish.

Well, I’m not going to base theological beliefs on a Strong Concordance, if that’s what you think.  Strong’s is a great reference but it does what a lot of resources do:  it’s overstepped its bounds.  Gehenna (or more accurately, the Valley of Himmon) is a physical, geographical place.  Even if the word WAS being used for a place of everlasting punishment, you still didn’t provide that support in the passage you quoted. 

Unless, that is, you believe that heaven is going to be full of one-eyed, one-handed, one-footed people who all amputated parts of their body. 

Trying to make this verse fit the doctrine of “hell as an everlasting place of punishment and fire” doesn’t work.  But I DO agree that it fits very well with what gets taught in most churches. 

There’s a clue, Godsmusic:  your idea of “hell” as a place of everlasting fire and torture is pieced together by dozens of verses of Scripture scattered throughout many contexts.  The reason you’re having trouble finding Scriptural proof for a literal burning hell is because there IS NO single passage of scripture that supports that idea.  Not that I’ve found, anyway.  And I’m apparently not alone.

Although I’m sure I’m in the minority on THIS particular forum. 

Tony

Perhaps you would like to elaborate on why you have to have “one single passage of scripture” to support an idea of a literal buring hell.

Gathering several scriptures to make a point does not make it invalid.

I think it’s fairly clear, at least to me, that in the context Jesus used hell fire he meant a real literal place, other then the local trash heap.

FamilyMan - 02 May 2008 02:11 PM

I’m still waiting on Tony to tell me where lost souls go if they don’t go to hell.

FamilyMan, my point is that people should study the Bible and arrive at their own beliefs.  As I mentioned earlier, I might be interested in responding to your question after we settle the questions already “on the table”......

....but even if I share my belief and it makes sense to you, I wouldn’t want you to change your beliefs on account of me.  That wouldn’t be any less dangerous than just believing what your pastor or teacher says.

Tony

PatrickH - 02 May 2008 02:24 PM

Perhaps you would like to elaborate on why you have to have “one single passage of scripture” to support an idea of a literal buring hell.

I already have.  The idea that God tortures billions of people for eternity “hellfire” is a dominant teaching in most of Christendom today. 

Since it IS such a ubiquitous doctrine, wouldn’t you think that the support for such a doctrine would have been clearly defined in at least one passage?  I would.  But that’s not the case.  The doctrine of “eternal hellfire” is pieced together from lots of different passages, different contexts and a lot of assumption and mythology.  At least that’s my perception of the problem.  I can’t find any clear teaching in the Bible that God tortures people for eternity.  Apparently neither can quite a lot of other scholars who are presumably a lot smarter than me.

Gathering several scriptures to make a point does not make it invalid.

It does when the same word is translated “grave” in a few dozen places and translated “the unseen” in a few dozen other places.  Or when the word is used in one place to refer to a garbage dump. 

Here’s a question, Patrick:  see if you can find the term “hell fire” in any verse of the Bible that talks about people not accepting Christ or in any way that implies that it’s for eternity.  That should provide a good starting point for a discussion if you’re interested.

I think it’s fairly clear, at least to me, that in the context Jesus used hell fire he meant a real literal place, other then the local trash heap.

Of course He didn’t!  LOL

Look at the passage.  Jesus is saying that you should pluck your eyes out if they offend you.  Or that you should cut off your hand if it offends you.  Or cut off your foot if it offends you!

Do you honestly think that Jesus intended for you to take that passage LITERALLY?  That He really was telling Christians to amputate their body parts if they were used for something other than the glory of God?

Of course not.  Only a fool would say those commandments were to be taken literally!  (Either that or we are ALL—including me—disobeying those commands!) I’ve still got both my feet, hands and eyes even though I can’t say that I’ve always used them for His glory.

No, from that alone, it’s obvious that Christ is speaking figuratively, not literally.  So, if he’s speaking figuratively about cutting off your feet, hands and eyes....why would you assume he’s being literal about everlasting torment?

Answer:  because it matches what you’ve been taught.  The question is whether or not “what you’ve been taught” is the correct authority.

Tony

TonyRush - 02 May 2008 02:47 PM

PatrickH - 02 May 2008 02:24 PM

Perhaps you would like to elaborate on why you have to have “one single passage of scripture” to support an idea of a literal buring hell.

I already have.  The idea that God tortures billions of people for eternity “hellfire” is a dominant teaching in most of Christendom today. 

Since it IS such a ubiquitous doctrine, wouldn’t you think that the support for such a doctrine would have been clearly defined in at least one passage?  I would.  But that’s not the case.  The doctrine of “eternal hellfire” is pieced together from lots of different passages, different contexts and a lot of assumption and mythology.  At least that’s my perception of the problem.  I can’t find any clear teaching in the Bible that God tortures people for eternity.  Apparently neither can quite a lot of other scholars who are presumably a lot smarter than me.

Gathering several scriptures to make a point does not make it invalid.

It does when the same word is translated “grave” in a few dozen places and translated “the unseen” in a few dozen other places.  Or when the word is used in one place to refer to a garbage dump. 

Here’s a question, Patrick:  see if you can find the term “hell fire” in any verse of the Bible that talks about people not accepting Christ or in any way that implies that it’s for eternity.  That should provide a good starting point for a discussion if you’re interested.

I think it’s fairly clear, at least to me, that in the context Jesus used hell fire he meant a real literal place, other then the local trash heap.

Of course He didn’t!  LOL

Look at the passage.  Jesus is saying that you should pluck your eyes out if they offend you.  Or that you should cut off your hand if it offends you.  Or cut off your foot if it offends you!

Do you honestly think that Jesus intended for you to take that passage LITERALLY?  That He really was telling Christians to amputate their body parts if they were used for something other than the glory of God?

Of course not.  Only a fool would say those commandments were to be taken literally!  (Either that or we are ALL—including me—disobeying those commands!) I’ve still got both my feet, hands and eyes even though I can’t say that I’ve always used them for His glory.

No, from that alone, it’s obvious that Christ is speaking figuratively, not literally.  So, if he’s speaking figuratively about cutting off your feet, hands and eyes....why would you assume he’s being literal about everlasting torment?

Answer:  because it matches what you’ve been taught.  The question is whether or not “what you’ve been taught” is the correct authority.

Tony

You seem to believe there is a reasonable expectation that doctrine should be packaged up in one clear passage in the Bible.

If your view of doctrine (one passage to substantiate a doctrine) was correct you could combine the Bible down to one book and a few chapters.

It doesn’t work that way, I’m afraid.

As always, you think everyones beliefs are based on what they have been taught, not what they have read in the Bible.

I was raised Presbyterian and Church of Christ.
Joined a Baptist Church, then Full Gospel Church
Eventually moved the the Church of God (Cleveland) and then Assembly of God.

So my doctrine is pretty much what I believe the Bible to say and not what I’ve been taught.

Basically what I believe hasn’t changed in years and isn’t likely to.

Which brings up an equally interesting question, by what authority do you believe that you have the correct answer when it comes to hell?

Patrick