Let’s start a discussion on this. Maybe Cliff and RevTabasco can get in on this. I am around a lot of Christians that are ok with drinking alcohol (social drinkers, per say). There are lots of scriptures that pertain with wine (alcohol, strong drink) :
Prov. 20:1,23:29-35,31:4-7 Ephe. 5:15-18
Hosea 4:11 II Sam. 11:13
Dan. 1:8 Gen. 9:20,27
I Cor. 8 Gen. 19:30-38
Rom. 14:21 Isaiah 5:11
Mic. 2:11 Lev. 10:9
John 2:9-10 Jer. 2:21
among others
I, personally, do not drink alcohol and am against it. I have seen how it makes a person act and its dangerous consequences. What are your feelings on the matter? Is it ok to have a glass of wine with your meal? I personally think that you have to realize in what context the term “wine” is used in the Bible. Sometimes it is talking about fermented and others it is talking about unfermented. Example : I believe that the wine that Noah & Lot drank was fermented - they both became drunk. I believe that when Jesus turned the water into wine at the wedding was unfermented. I would like to dig deeper in the scriptures to learn more of this and if I am wrong on any of this please let me know, in a CHRISTIAN way, of course
I, personally, do not drink and am not against it. I have to fight myself to keep from mentally condemning others when I see them drink. I think that’s a result of my upbringing. My parents didn’t/don’t drink and I wasn’t around it as a child.
I’ve never seen anything in Scripture to indicate that Jesus created anything other than fermented wine. The word “wine” is wine...it’s not grape juice. And to say that Jesus turned water into grape juice is to impose our pre-existing beliefs on what the Scripture is saying.
I’m not a linguist so I won’t presume to know Greek. But if you look in a Strong’s Concordance, the word “wine” comes from the Greek word “oinos”. It’s first mentioned in Matthew 9:17 as a metaphor that you would not put new wine into old bottles or they will break.
Why is this an important passage? Because it’s referring to the process of fermentation. The reason winemakers would not put new wine into old bottles is because the fermentation process would cause the bottles to break and the wine would be lost.
Fast forward to the passage about the wedding in Cana. When Jesus turned the water into wine, the Greek word “oinos” is again used; it’s referring to fermented wine. This is further supported by the comment of the ruler of the feast who noted that Jesus had brought out “the best wine” at the end of the feast. Why was this odd? Because it was the habit of hosts to give the best wine earlier in the feast so that—later as the guests were less discerning—they would not notice that the host had switched to a lesser-quality of wine.
But, in Jesus’ case, the wine he created was actually a better quality of wine than the very best that was served at the beginning of the feast.
So, in my mind, there’s no question about it. If you “push the reset button” on your existing beliefs about alcohol and read the Scripture with an objective frame of mind....it’s obvious that these verses refer to real wine, not grape juice.
One or two quick comments:
I, personally, do not drink alcohol and am against it. I have seen how it makes a person act and its dangerous consequences.
What you’re referring to here isn’t alcohol; you’re referring to drunkenness. The problem of “excess” is mentioned many times in the Bible.
There’s nothing wrong with sleeping. But an “excess” would be “slothfulness” which is taught against.
There’s nothing wrong with eating. But an “excess” would be “gluttony” and is taught against.
There’s nothing wrong with sex. But an “excess” (inappropriateness) would be called “fornication” or “adultery” and is taught against.
Likewise, I see nothing in the Bible that teaches against alcohol. Only against the EXCESS of alcohol which is “drunkenness”.
I feel completely free to drink alcohol if I want to and when the mood strikes me. Out of consideration, I tend not to do it if I’m dining with people who might be offended by my beliefs on the matter. Not because I believe they’re right but because I see no point in ruining their evening by giving them something to be stressed out about when they could otherwise be enjoying the meal and the conversation.
But, do I think it’s “wrong”? Not at all.
My last comment is simply this: prior to the 20th century, there was no major “movement” against alcohol. Prior to the careers of people like Billy Sunday,...there was no dominant teaching among Christians that alcohol was bad and that drinking was a sin.
In fact, that movement still doesn’t exist today in most parts of the world. I’ve had dinner with Christians in Australia, Italy, South Africa, Mexico, Canada, the Caribbean.......and having wine or a beer with a meal seems as expected as having water. I just got back from Rome Italy where we enjoyed some wonderful wines with some great meals with friends. It never occurred to these Christians that they were “sinning” by drinking alcohol.
It seems to be almost a purely Southern American belief that drinking is a sin. It’s the EXCESS that is considered poor behavior by most Christians in the world.
Fast forward to the passage about the wedding in Cana. When Jesus turned the water into wine, the Greek word “oinos” is again used; it’s referring to fermented wine. This is further supported by the comment of the ruler of the feast who noted that Jesus had brought out “the best wine” at the end of the feast. Why was this odd? Because it was the habit of hosts to give the best wine earlier in the feast so that—later as the guests were less discerning—they would not notice that the host had switched to a lesser-quality of wine.
But, in Jesus’ case, the wine he created was actually a better quality of wine than the very best that was served at the beginning of the feast.
So, in my mind, there’s no question about it. If you “push the reset button” on your existing beliefs about alcohol and read the Scripture with an objective frame of mind....it’s obvious that these verses refer to real wine, not grape juice.
Tony
I guess you finally found a passage in God’s Word that you feel isn’t an error, and/or the miracle is actual and not just a made up story?
I don’t know if that story happened the way Matthew wrote it or not. But, based on the way the question was asked, it makes sense to answer it with certain assumptions in place.
That’s an interesting choice. My choice is that there’s no reason NOT to smile! Life is good!
Anyway, did you have any thoughts on the topic? Do we really need to turn this thread into another discussion about “the inerrancy of Scripture”? It seems to me that there are a lot of threads about that if we want to revive one.
Fair enough. Then I suggest we discuss the actual topic of the thread, then. I’ve stated my beliefs about alcohol and what the Bible does and doesn’t say about it. Did you have a perspective to offer?
I’m not a linguist so I won’t presume to know Greek. But if you look in a Strong’s Concordance, the word “wine” comes from the Greek word “oinos”.
I have looked the term oinos up in several places and it refers to both fermented & unfermented, depending on the context. There are other Greek and Hebrew words for wine also that have been translated : tirosh, shekhar,gleukos,kalon oinon.
Fast forward to the passage about the wedding in Cana. When Jesus turned the water into wine, the Greek word “oinos” is again used; it’s referring to fermented wine. This is further supported by the comment of the ruler of the feast who noted that Jesus had brought out “the best wine” at the end of the feast. Why was this odd? Because it was the habit of hosts to give the best wine earlier in the feast so that—later as the guests were less discerning—they would not notice that the host had switched to a lesser-quality of wine. But, in Jesus’ case, the wine he created was actually a better quality of wine than the very best that was served at the beginning of the feast.
So, why would Jesus add fuel to the fire by creating more fermented wine to a crowd which had/were already well drunk on fermented wine (John 2:1-11), after HE preaches against drunkeness (heavily intoxicated)? After all you believe wine is wine wherever and whenever mentioned. Again I do not believe that.
So, in my mind, there’s no question about it. If you “push the reset button” on your existing beliefs about alcohol and read the Scripture with an objective frame of mind....it’s obvious that these verses refer to real wine, not grape juice.
It may have referred to real wine but again that real wine could have been unfermented also, which I believe it was.
I have looked the term oinos up in several places and it refers to both fermented & unfermented, depending on the context.
Can you reference where in the Bible the word ‘oinos’ is used to describe unfermented grape juice? (By the way, I’m using that language deliberately. Wine is, by definition, a fermented beverage. If it’s not fermented, it’s grape juice. The only place I consistently see the phrase “unfermented wine” is in conversations from tee-totaling Christians.
There are other Greek and Hebrew words for wine also that have been translated : tirosh, shekhar,gleukos,kalon oinon.
That may be be true but—since we’re talking about the wedding at Cana and the specific usage of that Greek word—I chose to cross-reference it elsewhere. That’s how I found the passage about how fermentation can break the bottles. Obviously that specific word is used to describe alcohol since substituting the word “grape juice” in that sentence wouldn’t make any sense at all.
So, why would Jesus add fuel to the fire by creating more fermented wine to a crowd which had/were already well drunk on fermented wine (John 2:1-11), after HE preaches against drunkeness (heavily intoxicated)? After all you believe wine is wine wherever and whenever mentioned. Again I do not believe that.
I never said that the guest were drunk. I said they were less likely to be able to discern the difference between a good wine and a cheap wine.
It’s a fairly typical function of one’s tastes: the more you taste of something, the fewer distinctions you can make. And it applies to everything whether it’s wine, popcorn, etc.
It may have referred to real wine but again that real wine could have been unfermented also, which I believe it was.
I respect that. I’ve just never seen anything in the Bible to indicate that the word “wine” isn’t used the same way it’s been used for centuries: to distinguish between fermented grapes and non-fermented grapes.
Again, I think it’s important to approach this question with no preconceived ideas. Otherwise, it’s fully understandable that someone will choose to interpret the story in the way that fits what they’ve already chosen to believe.
The message to abstain from wine is very southern in its origin. I agree with Tony that the word wine and the original translations mean fermented juice. I was raised in a church that taught the grape juice theory also. No where in the scriptures can that teaching be verified. I’m not advocating drinking, but I believe when the bible says wine, it means wine.
I’m not advocating drinking, but I believe when the bible says wine, it means wine.
I agree with you on this bit.
I also believe that Jesus turned a water pot full of water into not just wine, but evidently a very fine wine. When the Lord does something, he never does it half way. Whether it’s healing a lame man, or saving a sin drenched soul, or turning water into wine. He doeth all things well!
I have to warn you, I may not have put this information in the right “quote” format. I haven’t mastered this yet, but I am sure you will figure it out.
MUSIC_DADDY - 23 April 2008 04:44 PM
I have looked the term oinos up in several places and it refers to both fermented & unfermented, depending on the context.
Can you reference where in the Bible the word ‘oinos’ is used to describe unfermented grape juice?
I never said I got the information on the term “oinos” from the BIBLE. I looked this information up on the internet and went to notes that I had already had. If I had a copy of the original text in Greek though...........
There are other Greek and Hebrew words for wine also that have been translated : tirosh, shekhar,gleukos,kalon oinon.
That may be be true but—since we’re talking about the wedding at Cana and the specific usage of that Greek word—I chose to cross-reference it elsewhere. That’s how I found the passage about how fermentation can break the bottles. Obviously that specific word is used to describe alcohol since substituting the word “grape juice” in that sentence wouldn’t make any sense at all.
I understand the chemistry of this. What a big bang it would have been at the wedding if the old wineskins had been used instead of the new ones.
So, why would Jesus add fuel to the fire by creating more fermented wine to a crowd which had/were already well drunk on fermented wine (John 2:1-11), after HE preaches against drunkeness (heavily intoxicated)? After all you believe wine is wine wherever and whenever mentioned. Again I do not believe that.
I never said that the guest were drunk. I said they were less likely to be able to discern the difference between a good wine and a cheap wine.
Again I never stated that “you said” this. This was taken directly from the BIBLE. I still would like an answer to the question I proposed.
It may have referred to real wine but again that real wine could have been unfermented also, which I believe it was.
I respect that. I’ve just never seen anything in the Bible to indicate that the word “wine” isn’t used the same way it’s been used for centuries: to distinguish between fermented grapes and non-fermented grapes.
Various information from different websites agree that the term “oinos” (wine) pertains to fermented AND unfermented wine, again depending on the context of the verse(s) of scripture. This is how I arrived at my understanding of the scriptures. This is my conviction. It would probably be best to say that we agree to disagree on this. Wine may mean wine but it could be iun a different form (fermented & unfermented). That is a point I am trying to get across.
Again, I think it’s important to approach this question with no preconceived ideas. Otherwise, it’s fully understandable that someone will choose to interpret the story in the way that fits what they’ve already chosen to believe. Tony
Now I do think this is true for just about any topic. We agree on this.
A couple of things here :
So, in my mind, there’s no question about it. If you “push the reset button” on your existing beliefs about alcohol and read the Scripture with an objective frame of mind....it’s obvious that these verses refer to real wine, not grape juice.
Sorry, but I am not a computer with a “reset button”, just a regular human being that doesn’t have to be plugged into an outlet
AND
It seems to be almost a purely Southern American belief that drinking is a sin.
I would love to have more information on this stereotypical comment and whether or not it is indeed fact, myth, preconceived notion, etc. So, in other words, do only yanks believe in partaking in strong drink?
